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	<title>Comments on: sxsw, rome burning or something being born? - la times&#8217; ann powers</title>
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	<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born</link>
	<description>music . media . web. culture</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 07:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-75174</link>
		<dc:creator>matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 20:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-75174</guid>
		<description>Mr. Allen you said it yourself - in another thread I believe - if you're trying to be the cool kid on the block, you ain't... something like that. Anyway, the point is, you need to be GOOD or at least entertaining. True talent is often overlooked, not by an audience, but by the musician. I've always held the adage "If you are good, the audience will come" maybe not enough to support your iced mocha habit, but an audience nonetheless. Few bands can make a career on shtick alone (anymore). So why worry about the biz plan? Wait until you can fill a room in your hometown before setting out to conquer the world. Gas is too expensive, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Allen you said it yourself - in another thread I believe - if you&#8217;re trying to be the cool kid on the block, you ain&#8217;t&#8230; something like that. Anyway, the point is, you need to be GOOD or at least entertaining. True talent is often overlooked, not by an audience, but by the musician. I&#8217;ve always held the adage &#8220;If you are good, the audience will come&#8221; maybe not enough to support your iced mocha habit, but an audience nonetheless. Few bands can make a career on shtick alone (anymore). So why worry about the biz plan? Wait until you can fill a room in your hometown before setting out to conquer the world. Gas is too expensive, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-75170</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 19:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-75170</guid>
		<description>@Matthew,

Yes the focus is all wrong...bands are now in the T-shirt business not the music business, they need to act accordingly. I can only wish that Gang of Four had come out of the gate with a biz plan....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matthew,</p>
<p>Yes the focus is all wrong&#8230;bands are now in the T-shirt business not the music business, they need to act accordingly. I can only wish that Gang of Four had come out of the gate with a biz plan&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-75165</link>
		<dc:creator>matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 19:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-75165</guid>
		<description>Great discussion. It seems that "getting a deal" has become too much of a focus too quickly for young bands/musicians. When Nirvana went uber platinum the whole model suddenly changed. Remember when the line between DIY and major labels was clear and defined? I'm curious, did Gang of Four come out of the gates with a business plan or were all these considerations brought up after the band had enjoyed some success? Is this a relatively new phenomenon or is it as old as the business?

It seems to me that the fundamental issue is that young musicians see music as a career instead of an artistic endeavor. The fact that SXSW is a household name instead of an industry insider convention says a lot about the state of things. Your points about talent ring true indeed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion. It seems that &#8220;getting a deal&#8221; has become too much of a focus too quickly for young bands/musicians. When Nirvana went uber platinum the whole model suddenly changed. Remember when the line between DIY and major labels was clear and defined? I&#8217;m curious, did Gang of Four come out of the gates with a business plan or were all these considerations brought up after the band had enjoyed some success? Is this a relatively new phenomenon or is it as old as the business?</p>
<p>It seems to me that the fundamental issue is that young musicians see music as a career instead of an artistic endeavor. The fact that SXSW is a household name instead of an industry insider convention says a lot about the state of things. Your points about talent ring true indeed</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-62195</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-62195</guid>
		<description>Benjy,

I certainly don't believe for one minute that SXSW is misrepresenting itself, just that the PR spin and the way the PR is picked up points to the conference as a Music conference and a way for bands to maybe get a deal. I think that's been an unwavering position for many years. That will only change when the music business becomes a second thought and the unofficial parties become the "official" conference after all.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benjy,</p>
<p>I certainly don&#8217;t believe for one minute that SXSW is misrepresenting itself, just that the PR spin and the way the PR is picked up points to the conference as a Music conference and a way for bands to maybe get a deal. I think that&#8217;s been an unwavering position for many years. That will only change when the music business becomes a second thought and the unofficial parties become the &#8220;official&#8221; conference after all&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Benjy</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-62188</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-62188</guid>
		<description>Great point about the parties.  I'd agree that those are great ways to see great bands or get a chance to get a showcase.  But I think it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the only folks to see are the "buzz" bands that do seem to be "pre-anointed."  For those who are really looking for off-the-beaten-path type of stuff can easily see tons of great music that isn't label/agency-buzzed.  One of the best groups I saw this year was Harley Poe, a crazy punk-americana (for lack of a better term) from Indianapolis, and I certainly "discovered" them that night as a fan without the buzz... I was there for a great avant-garde art-rock band before them, Everthus the Deadbeats, and another fan of theirs suggested I stay, and it was great.  That kind of stuff is everywhere at SXSW, and doesn't mean you have to stand in line for the R.E.M.s or Band of Horseses, etc.  If you're only there to see the buzz-bands, you're missing out.

Though I also admit that you can get a lot of business work done there as a musician without even having a showcase, it's true.  To say that just because it's a "music conference" doesn't mean it's not a "business conference" would be a little shortsighted.  For many, music is their business, and I'd encourage artists to think about theirs that way, too.  I don't mean artists should sell out if given the opportunity, but ideally you're able to treat it like a business to meet your musical goals (either part-time or as a career).

If you feel SXSW is misrepresenting themselves, let 'em know.  The folks I know there seem open to constructive criticism, though patience is important as the event/organization has been around a while.

Benjy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great point about the parties.  I&#8217;d agree that those are great ways to see great bands or get a chance to get a showcase.  But I think it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the only folks to see are the &#8220;buzz&#8221; bands that do seem to be &#8220;pre-anointed.&#8221;  For those who are really looking for off-the-beaten-path type of stuff can easily see tons of great music that isn&#8217;t label/agency-buzzed.  One of the best groups I saw this year was Harley Poe, a crazy punk-americana (for lack of a better term) from Indianapolis, and I certainly &#8220;discovered&#8221; them that night as a fan without the buzz&#8230; I was there for a great avant-garde art-rock band before them, Everthus the Deadbeats, and another fan of theirs suggested I stay, and it was great.  That kind of stuff is everywhere at SXSW, and doesn&#8217;t mean you have to stand in line for the R.E.M.s or Band of Horseses, etc.  If you&#8217;re only there to see the buzz-bands, you&#8217;re missing out.</p>
<p>Though I also admit that you can get a lot of business work done there as a musician without even having a showcase, it&#8217;s true.  To say that just because it&#8217;s a &#8220;music conference&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s not a &#8220;business conference&#8221; would be a little shortsighted.  For many, music is their business, and I&#8217;d encourage artists to think about theirs that way, too.  I don&#8217;t mean artists should sell out if given the opportunity, but ideally you&#8217;re able to treat it like a business to meet your musical goals (either part-time or as a career).</p>
<p>If you feel SXSW is misrepresenting themselves, let &#8216;em know.  The folks I know there seem open to constructive criticism, though patience is important as the event/organization has been around a while.</p>
<p>Benjy</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-62121</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-62121</guid>
		<description>Hi Benjy,

Thanks for jumping in and thanks for your well-reasoned post. Yet I do have to take you up on your comment about SXSW falling as you say into the hopper of "business conference." In the 17 years I've attended the conference it has never explicitly posed as a business conference and even the PR that was sent out by the SXSW folks this year still pushes it as a music conference and still promotes its ability for you the band or artist to "be discovered" at SXSW. My point is simple, all the buzz bands year over year have always arrived pre-anointed by the powers that be in the music industry. I can not give you one single example of an undiscovered band rocking everyone's world so much that they got signed on the spot. It would be great to dispel the myth that that is a remotely possible outcome. [You probably read the Ann Powers and Jon Pareles' SXSW round up articles, they are unsure of where the conference is going I believe.]

I would argue that dispelling that myth is not part of your business model at Sonicbids, you *do* the sell the dream. As a professional musician I know exactly what it takes to get my band, Gang of Four, in front of anyone, from our fans to music business types, to filmmakers for soundtrack work, to getting on festivals - it takes a small army and we are still not successful at attaining all that we desire. One thing I do know that works well is always putting our money in the right place. We never had to pay anyone to do anything for us and again I would argue that if you have to pay for a service that may or may not give you a leg up then something is wrong at the most basic level of one's career - the talent part.

The obvious choice for unsigned artists is to market themselves heavily through music blogs such as this one, leverage anything they have to get on to one of the unofficial parties at SXSW and then hope for the best as nothing is guaranteed and you certainly can't buy a guarantee. For me personally the heart of SXSW is all the parties surrounding it - I believe much can be learned by networking those, see how other bands do things first hand and be exposed to both sides of the experience...the panels at SXSW have never provided anywhere near that kind of exposure. And the parties are free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Benjy,</p>
<p>Thanks for jumping in and thanks for your well-reasoned post. Yet I do have to take you up on your comment about SXSW falling as you say into the hopper of &#8220;business conference.&#8221; In the 17 years I&#8217;ve attended the conference it has never explicitly posed as a business conference and even the PR that was sent out by the SXSW folks this year still pushes it as a music conference and still promotes its ability for you the band or artist to &#8220;be discovered&#8221; at SXSW. My point is simple, all the buzz bands year over year have always arrived pre-anointed by the powers that be in the music industry. I can not give you one single example of an undiscovered band rocking everyone&#8217;s world so much that they got signed on the spot. It would be great to dispel the myth that that is a remotely possible outcome. [You probably read the Ann Powers and Jon Pareles' SXSW round up articles, they are unsure of where the conference is going I believe.]</p>
<p>I would argue that dispelling that myth is not part of your business model at Sonicbids, you *do* the sell the dream. As a professional musician I know exactly what it takes to get my band, Gang of Four, in front of anyone, from our fans to music business types, to filmmakers for soundtrack work, to getting on festivals - it takes a small army and we are still not successful at attaining all that we desire. One thing I do know that works well is always putting our money in the right place. We never had to pay anyone to do anything for us and again I would argue that if you have to pay for a service that may or may not give you a leg up then something is wrong at the most basic level of one&#8217;s career - the talent part.</p>
<p>The obvious choice for unsigned artists is to market themselves heavily through music blogs such as this one, leverage anything they have to get on to one of the unofficial parties at SXSW and then hope for the best as nothing is guaranteed and you certainly can&#8217;t buy a guarantee. For me personally the heart of SXSW is all the parties surrounding it - I believe much can be learned by networking those, see how other bands do things first hand and be exposed to both sides of the experience&#8230;the panels at SXSW have never provided anywhere near that kind of exposure. And the parties are free.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjy</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-62120</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-62120</guid>
		<description>I\'ve heard a number of good constructive criticisms about the Sonicbids platform, as I happen to work there and used to manage their Artist Relations customer service team, and we\'re always open to discuss ideas and concerns directly with artists, but in this case I think some of the critics are missing some of the point.  Yes, it\'s expensive to attend SXSW as a badge holder, but if you go into it with a business plan for your ROI (return on investment), which I think Panos (the sonicbids founder) did a good job covering in his panel, tracking out, \"how am i going to manage this conference so that i make the right connections to earn my $500 back,\" then you\'re going to have a lot more success then simply going in with the idea that the worth will be handed to you.  I understand the feeling that it should, but that\'s not how any sort of business conference goes.

SXSW actually provides an online directory of all badge holder attendees PRIOR to the conference starting, and many use that as a way to make initial connections and set up meetings, but way to many artists and agents and promoters fail to utilize that tool and come unprepared to capitalize on all those folks being there.  Of course there are criticisms that SXSW does not work in the same industry capacity as it used to, where a band could come play and get \"discovered\" on the spot.  I think that SXSW doesn\'t work that way, but I don\'t think the conference bills itself as that either.  But the deeper point about an event not meeting expectations is a solid one, and one we deal with at Sonicbids a lot.

As for preying on the dreams of artists, one call to our fantastic artist relations crew -- to find out more about the service and good ways to use it and constructive ways to perform due diligence and potentially NOT use it in certain/many situations -- will go a long way to dispel that myth, I think.  So many listings and opportunities are extremely tempting, of course, but there are ways to determine prior to making a submission if it\'s going to be the right thing to try to go for rather than treating submissions like lottery tickets.

As for ArtistForce, I spoke with them a bit, and they seem to be primarily about the contracting end of performance arrangements. To be fair, calling it “Sonicbids #2″ is a bit off as we haven’t even seen their service in action yet. I’d encourage you to be patient on the comparisons there. I\'d encourage you to be patient on the comparisons there.

As always, if you ever have ideas or concerns about Sonicbids, feel free to share them with us... we\'re happy to listen, and we always want to keep improving the service for artists.

Benjy

=====
Benjy Kantor
Business Development Representative
Sonicbids
Artist Relations can be reached at http://www.sonicbids.com/support/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I\&#8217;ve heard a number of good constructive criticisms about the Sonicbids platform, as I happen to work there and used to manage their Artist Relations customer service team, and we\&#8217;re always open to discuss ideas and concerns directly with artists, but in this case I think some of the critics are missing some of the point.  Yes, it\&#8217;s expensive to attend SXSW as a badge holder, but if you go into it with a business plan for your ROI (return on investment), which I think Panos (the sonicbids founder) did a good job covering in his panel, tracking out, \&#8221;how am i going to manage this conference so that i make the right connections to earn my $500 back,\&#8221; then you\&#8217;re going to have a lot more success then simply going in with the idea that the worth will be handed to you.  I understand the feeling that it should, but that\&#8217;s not how any sort of business conference goes.</p>
<p>SXSW actually provides an online directory of all badge holder attendees PRIOR to the conference starting, and many use that as a way to make initial connections and set up meetings, but way to many artists and agents and promoters fail to utilize that tool and come unprepared to capitalize on all those folks being there.  Of course there are criticisms that SXSW does not work in the same industry capacity as it used to, where a band could come play and get \&#8221;discovered\&#8221; on the spot.  I think that SXSW doesn\&#8217;t work that way, but I don\&#8217;t think the conference bills itself as that either.  But the deeper point about an event not meeting expectations is a solid one, and one we deal with at Sonicbids a lot.</p>
<p>As for preying on the dreams of artists, one call to our fantastic artist relations crew &#8212; to find out more about the service and good ways to use it and constructive ways to perform due diligence and potentially NOT use it in certain/many situations &#8212; will go a long way to dispel that myth, I think.  So many listings and opportunities are extremely tempting, of course, but there are ways to determine prior to making a submission if it\&#8217;s going to be the right thing to try to go for rather than treating submissions like lottery tickets.</p>
<p>As for ArtistForce, I spoke with them a bit, and they seem to be primarily about the contracting end of performance arrangements. To be fair, calling it “Sonicbids #2″ is a bit off as we haven’t even seen their service in action yet. I’d encourage you to be patient on the comparisons there. I\&#8217;d encourage you to be patient on the comparisons there.</p>
<p>As always, if you ever have ideas or concerns about Sonicbids, feel free to share them with us&#8230; we\&#8217;re happy to listen, and we always want to keep improving the service for artists.</p>
<p>Benjy</p>
<p>=====<br />
Benjy Kantor<br />
Business Development Representative<br />
Sonicbids<br />
Artist Relations can be reached at <a href="http://www.sonicbids.com/support/" rel="nofollow">http://www.sonicbids.com/support/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Garett</title>
		<link>http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/2008/03/sxsw-la-times-ann-powers-rome-burning-or-something-being-born#comment-61929</link>
		<dc:creator>Garett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pampelmoose.com/mspeaks/?p=1364#comment-61929</guid>
		<description>Dave, you and others are correct in your analysis. The sheer volume of acts simply drives the point home. Regardless of your talent, even if you have "buzz", your odds of making a living in music are miniscule. It's similar with writing novels or screenwriting. While the distribution channels for those media have not change as much as the models in the music industry due to technolgy, the odds of making a living are miniscule, and talent is not determinative of much-many talented people fail, and some hacks prevail. In publishing and screenwriting there have always been agencies and companies that will take your money and "promote" you, and there have always been (expensive) seminars and "conferences" that purport to give you a way to get on the inside track.

So it is not surprising that the same market forces are coming to bear on indie music-if people want an avenue to the fast track (even if it is a chimera) there will be someone who will create a an on ramp for them, and take their money. Sad, but it was ever thus....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, you and others are correct in your analysis. The sheer volume of acts simply drives the point home. Regardless of your talent, even if you have &#8220;buzz&#8221;, your odds of making a living in music are miniscule. It&#8217;s similar with writing novels or screenwriting. While the distribution channels for those media have not change as much as the models in the music industry due to technolgy, the odds of making a living are miniscule, and talent is not determinative of much-many talented people fail, and some hacks prevail. In publishing and screenwriting there have always been agencies and companies that will take your money and &#8220;promote&#8221; you, and there have always been (expensive) seminars and &#8220;conferences&#8221; that purport to give you a way to get on the inside track.</p>
<p>So it is not surprising that the same market forces are coming to bear on indie music-if people want an avenue to the fast track (even if it is a chimera) there will be someone who will create a an on ramp for them, and take their money. Sad, but it was ever thus&#8230;.</p>
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